Posted by: Dale "Head_Hunters" DuPont on April 06, 2003 at 12:52:02

: : 1 Saddam does have chemical and bio weapons he has used them on his own people : === One may wonder why we haven’t seen the use of any WMD against a force which that is obviously invading their country. If they had those weps, you’d really have to be delusional not to think they’d be using them as we speak. One guy I talked to said, they’re waiting for more Americans to get in country. This is pretty silly considering that if they wait much longer, they may not have a country to defend. So ask yourself why they haven’t used their stockpile of WMD. @@@@ We will find out shortly. : +++ Not that I condone his use of any weapons against “his own people” but you should understand who these people are. The Kurds of Northern Iraq do not consider themselves “His Own People” they want to NOT be “his own People” and with the help of the US began to revolt against Iraq in 92-93. Do some homework regarding these warlike and separatist peoples, and you’ll see that they are a problem to all their neighboring countries. Turkey is scaring the Kurds big time, which is part of the reason that we just placed paratroopers into Northern Iraq, to make sure the Turks don’t begin incursions into Northern Iraq. If you think that the Turks will be gentle, you are living in a dreamworld. The Turks can be some brutal motherfckers. @@@@ You bet! Why do you think the dependents of Air Force people based in Turkey were shipped out last week? They ain't worried about Iraq invading Turkey.......Thats for sure... : The idea of ‘His Own People’ is one of the many Justifications we are being fed from our government to pacify any homeland resistance. : : 2 in the past he has tried to invaid 2 other countries : === Can you name them? I can. @@@@ Yep! and the US put him up to invading Iran and gave him the base chemicals and the receipe book to make chemical and bio weapons. : : 3 he has failed to obey Many UN resolutions in the past : ++++= So has the United States. Our UN dues are the highest delinquent money that the UN has. If we paid those dues, the UN could fund many many programs that they have had to abandon. We owe something like 400million dollars. This is from years of not paying up. : +++= Yes, though, they have broken those agreed upon conditions that stopped the war in 91. Still, if you want to hold up the UN as our ideal, then why condone the US acting like a vigilante? @@@ I'm don't disagree. Non payment is an attempt to leverage some changes - unsuccessfully. The UN does do some good work they probably don't get enough credit for. Their "Peace Keeping Role" is lacking on the "War Prevention and Intervention" end of the spectrum. Basically, they pick up the pieces after the slaughter. I would rather see the UN step in between parties with armed forces BEFORE the slaughter. The structure of the security counsel, veto powers, etc. basically prevent that. It was designed for the Cold War and now out of date. I feel their charter needs to be revised to have a more viable future. It is all we have to work with as a world community. We just need to make it better..... Time for some changes or a replacment. What do you think about an armed UN Intervention Force? Simple majority vote of the world community. No Vetos. Drop a 250,000 people armed and equipped just like ours right between opposing sides and dare either of them to get past you to attack the other side. Just seperate the people trying to kill each other until a political solution can be had. An Individual from ANY country could volunteer to enlist in the UN Policing Force. Their country of origin would have the responsibility to pay for that person's training based on some formula. If they don't pay, they can't join. The people demonstrating against War or for Peace could pass the hat too. They could fund their own countrymen willing to do more than demonstrate for "World Peace". One more condition. Every Miss America candidate that wants to say they want to 'work for World Peace' has to volunteer first! : : 4. He is a brutal dictator. : +++ So was the Shaw of Iran, who we put into power to become a powerful middle eastern ally when we saw that Israel would be as much a danger to us as friend. Likewise, when the militant religious fanatics in Iran overthrew the Shaw, we backed Hussein in Iraq in a 10 year war to fight Iran (one of the countries he was going to invade? Read some history my friend! ) So what exactly do you think is going on here? We the US have an agenda, in the Mideast, that Agenda includes oil. We’ve always been a country of clods. Good hearted honest clods at the core, me included, but when it comes to foreign affairs, we’re not savvy, we’re not subtle, we’re not effective. We go in headlong and bust sht up! Sounds fun, but it’s not. It’s unhealthy to the world and to our country. : Think about it. We put a brutal dictator into power. This has happened in quite a few countries. That Dictator rules with his iron glove. We want something, he wants something, we don’t support him in his wants, and he takes what he wants. We smack his btt back, and we have a new hated enemy. : Few people talk about why Iraq invaded Kuwait in the first place. They didn’t do it for oil. They have plenty. They did it for two reasons, there primary justification was that in 1899 (ancient history) Britain set up Kuwait and ran it as an oil depot until 1961 when they became their own country. Kuwait was set up out of what was once Iraq land. : What did Hussien want? He wanted to recoup some money after a long terrible war with Iran. If you look at a map you’ll see that there’s not much of a sea connection for Iraq to the world. Kuwait was one routing, and he decided to take it. We don’t know what negotiations or backroom stuff was going on before that invasion, but it wasn’t a simple invasion by a wild crazy dictator. @@@ No argument here. America as stuck its finger in every pie in the Middle East. Know of an exception? We've been messing with their governments for a hunderd years now and the people have LONG Memories. Let's add Saudi Arabia as an repressive regieme that wouldn't be called "Saudi" Arabia the day after their first election... The Saudi Family would be out on their ear.... I heard but don't know for sure that they were in the top 10 of Human Rights Violaters at one time.. : : Nobody disagrees that the world would be a better place if he didn't control Iraq. Even the Arab states. : === I have no opinion on this since I am an American not an Iraqi. If I were from that region, I’m sure I’d have an opinion, and it might be in agreement. I’d have to say though, that if I were someone from a tribe who was butchered by some religious fanatics out of Iran or who’s grandparents were murdered by Kurds, perhaps I’d be glad Hussien was in power. You should ask yourself why YOU really think he’s unfit for rule. Really. Then apply those ideas to our own leadership, just for kicks. : +++++ Seriously, I’m not a left wing liberal POS. I’m just a normal middle class American like many, but I’m not going to be taken for a fool and treated like an idiot child. We all can see something is up here besides what the news is telling us. It’s our duty as Americans to look beyond the news and status quo. : : : The UN is Impotent. It has failed to act in "Humanitarian" crises repeatedly. If they did, it was too little too late for hundreds of thousands of lives. I don't blame BUSH for saying to heck with the UN after giving them the opportunity to back their own resolutions. : +++++The UN was backing their resolutions. We had inspectors in Iraq, sure with the threat of US invasion, and that was working. If the US wanted recompense for the billions it was costing to send troops over there to threaten Iraq into allowing inspectors back in, then you can believe that there is a program in place that would do just that. The Food for Oil Program is Iraq’s line of credit in the world. : Consider how we were dealing with Iraq prior to the Hawk takeover of the US (see Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Perle) and you’ll see that we have been starving them out for years. We have effectively ruined their country by having huge restrictions on their exports. What has this done? It’s killed people. It’s made people live lousy lives. It’s created a state of poverty and hurt the neighboring countries which would otherwise engage in commerce with Iraq. Is this morally right for us to do to another country just because we don’t like them? We don’t even know them! @@@@@@ Well, did you make my point? Do we agree? The embargo was a UN resolution that doesn't appear to have worked very well. How many years have to pass before the UN effort is considered a "failure"? Still, It is interesting that the US Coalition felt the need to be the lone voices in the world community that felt 'something' had to be done now. We are perceived as the "Bully" in the world community. I think if one examines why we are perceived that way, we would discover that their arguments actually have some merit. : ++++ I write all of the above as point to point arguments. I did that to help focus my own understanding and feelings, and to help others focus their doubts and feelings too. I do it with as much respect as you have given me. @@@@ I think we feel much the same way. It is good for all of us to try to express these conflicting feelings, emotions, and facts. : : The US has publically declared what "National Interests" we are defending. Unfortunately, Bush has lied to the whole world by OMITTING that the stability of the price of a barrel of oil is ONE of America's Vital interests. It IS and every reasonable, informed person knows it. Instead he states is ISN'T about oil. Who thinks that PART of this war ISN'T ABOUT OIL? : : Why doesn'the plan to 'liberate' North Korea? No oil. They admit to developing Weapons of MASS Destructions. : : But if US Policy is to become the world's policeman, then America HAS a problem. Your local policeman doesn't make up the law. The community makes up the law and the policeman's job is to enforce the law uniformly for all of the community members. : : Policemen that selectively enforces the law on only "certain groups" are widely disrespected by the entire community. Policemen that break the law or impose 'street justice' are considered the scum of the earth. They have POWER and if they abuse it, they get no respect from the community affected. They violate the community's trust and their duty as policemen. : to become the world's policeman then the US has to give UP CONTROL over what 'laws' they choose to enforce or not enforce. : : The world community has to make up the laws and have a standing police force to enforce them equally and consistently. And be under the command and control of the world community. There are a LOT of good reasons the US shouldn't do that. So why should WE be trying to be the worlds policeman without international support? Simply, we shouldn't : : They can't make up the rules and change them whenever they want based on our 'national interests' at the time... We armed Iraq to fight Iran. We armed Saudia Arabia to fight Iran. : : We are behaving just like some gang on the street running a protection racket. We decide who our friends and enemies are and interact with them as we see fit. We demand tribute from are friends and enemies. We favor those that pay and punish those that resist. We pay and arm one country to go beat up on another. We hire others to do our dirty work. : : America is being perceived, whether we like it or not, and whether is it true or not, as the Bully on the Block. Not the policeman. : : Our country has been meddling in the middle east for over 50 years. How many governments and wars has the US and its military aid programs supported and opposed during that time. People have long memories when a country imposes its will on yours. Down south they havn't forgotten the Civil War yet... That was over a hundred years ago. 911 was terrible but that was ONE day that 50 plus years of US policy in the Middle East came home to bite us. : : Time will tell if this little adventure in Iraq has created MORE problems than it solved. News this week states that we have alienated the "Moderate Arabs" Well, nobody asked what the impact is by pissing off the Arabs that already hate us even more. Got to ask yourself how many MORE of them are willing to fly planes into buildings this week compared to last month? : : Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Enough reason to get rid of Saddam. But the price WILL be high. Blood, Guts, and shattered lives and families on both sides. The political price will be high too. Time will tell.... : ++++ You voice many of the things that are being felt deep down inside of many of us. I was talking with my wife last night about what we as Americans should be trying to do in the world. This fight over oil is a fight about money invested in old technologies and commodities. There have always been stories of the perfect gasoline engine which will get umpteen hundred miles per gallon, but that cannot be produced thanks to the oil companies. This is obviously myth, but what isn’t myth is that we’re not ALL headed towards a betterment of the World. Once upon a time, not very long ago in the scheme of world history, our pioneer forefathers came here and carved out a world, a nation. Yankee ingenuity, hard work, and a fever towards betterment of the world. These things were the real revolution of democracy. We humans could and would work for ourselves, not ‘the king’ and become better individual men (and women) because we were finally allowed to be individuals. : We individuals still can make the world a better place. It’s not all about making your individual fortune, though obviously that has it’s place! : Now I have entered uncharted thoughts, so forgive or thank god that I end here. @@@@ Keep thinking about it..... All of us....

Follow Ups: Post a Followup Show your name as: DefaultRealnameBothNickname E-Mail address (eg: joeschmoe@aol.com): Show your e-mail address? DefaultYesNo Your Password: Don't have a password? CLICK HERE - Forgot your password? CLICK HERE Subject: Subject:Message: : : : 1 Saddam does have chemical and bio weapons he has used them on his own people : : === One may wonder why we haven’t seen the use of any WMD against a force which that is obviously invading their country. If they had those weps, you’d really have to be delusional not to think they’d be using them as we speak. One guy I talked to said, they’re waiting for more Americans to get in country. This is pretty silly considering that if they wait much longer, they may not have a country to defend. So ask yourself why they haven’t used their stockpile of WMD. : @@@@ We will find out shortly. : : +++ Not that I condone his use of any weapons against “his own people” but you should understand who these people are. The Kurds of Northern Iraq do not consider themselves “His Own People” they want to NOT be “his own People” and with the help of the US began to revolt against Iraq in 92-93. Do some homework regarding these warlike and separatist peoples, and you’ll see that they are a problem to all their neighboring countries. Turkey is scaring the Kurds big time, which is part of the reason that we just placed paratroopers into Northern Iraq, to make sure the Turks don’t begin incursions into Northern Iraq. If you think that the Turks will be gentle, you are living in a dreamworld. The Turks can be some brutal motherfckers. : @@@@ You bet! Why do you think the dependents of Air Force people based in Turkey were shipped out last week? They ain't worried about Iraq invading Turkey.......Thats for sure... : : The idea of ‘His Own People’ is one of the many Justifications we are being fed from our government to pacify any homeland resistance. : : : 2 in the past he has tried to invaid 2 other countries : : === Can you name them? I can. : @@@@ Yep! and the US put him up to invading Iran and gave him the base chemicals and the receipe book to make chemical and bio weapons. : : : 3 he has failed to obey Many UN resolutions in the past : : ++++= So has the United States. Our UN dues are the highest delinquent money that the UN has. If we paid those dues, the UN could fund many many programs that they have had to abandon. We owe something like 400million dollars. This is from years of not paying up. : : : +++= Yes, though, they have broken those agreed upon conditions that stopped the war in 91. Still, if you want to hold up the UN as our ideal, then why condone the US acting like a vigilante? : @@@ I'm don't disagree. Non payment is an attempt to leverage some changes - unsuccessfully. : The UN does do some good work they probably don't get enough credit for. Their "Peace Keeping Role" is lacking on the "War Prevention and Intervention" end of the spectrum. Basically, they pick up the pieces after the slaughter. I would rather see the UN step in between parties with armed forces BEFORE the slaughter. : The structure of the security counsel, veto powers, etc. basically prevent that. It was designed for the Cold War and now out of date. I feel their charter needs to be revised to have a more viable future. It is all we have to work with as a world community. We just need to make it better..... Time for some changes or a replacment. : What do you think about an armed UN Intervention Force? Simple majority vote of the world community. No Vetos. Drop a 250,000 people armed and equipped just like ours right between opposing sides and dare either of them to get past you to attack the other side. Just seperate the people trying to kill each other until a political solution can be had. : An Individual from ANY country could volunteer to enlist in the UN Policing Force. Their country of origin would have the responsibility to pay for that person's training based on some formula. If they don't pay, they can't join. : The people demonstrating against War or for Peace could pass the hat too. They could fund their own countrymen willing to do more than demonstrate for "World Peace". : One more condition. Every Miss America candidate that wants to say they want to 'work for World Peace' has to volunteer first! : : : 4. He is a brutal dictator. : : +++ So was the Shaw of Iran, who we put into power to become a powerful middle eastern ally when we saw that Israel would be as much a danger to us as friend. Likewise, when the militant religious fanatics in Iran overthrew the Shaw, we backed Hussein in Iraq in a 10 year war to fight Iran (one of the countries he was going to invade? Read some history my friend! ) So what exactly do you think is going on here? We the US have an agenda, in the Mideast, that Agenda includes oil. We’ve always been a country of clods. Good hearted honest clods at the core, me included, but when it comes to foreign affairs, we’re not savvy, we’re not subtle, we’re not effective. We go in headlong and bust sht up! Sounds fun, but it’s not. It’s unhealthy to the world and to our country. : : Think about it. We put a brutal dictator into power. This has happened in quite a few countries. That Dictator rules with his iron glove. We want something, he wants something, we don’t support him in his wants, and he takes what he wants. We smack his btt back, and we have a new hated enemy. : : Few people talk about why Iraq invaded Kuwait in the first place. They didn’t do it for oil. They have plenty. They did it for two reasons, there primary justification was that in 1899 (ancient history) Britain set up Kuwait and ran it as an oil depot until 1961 when they became their own country. Kuwait was set up out of what was once Iraq land. : : What did Hussien want? He wanted to recoup some money after a long terrible war with Iran. If you look at a map you’ll see that there’s not much of a sea connection for Iraq to the world. Kuwait was one routing, and he decided to take it. We don’t know what negotiations or backroom stuff was going on before that invasion, but it wasn’t a simple invasion by a wild crazy dictator. : @@@ No argument here. America as stuck its finger in every pie in the Middle East. Know of an exception? We've been messing with their governments for a hunderd years now and the people have LONG Memories. : Let's add Saudi Arabia as an repressive regieme that wouldn't be called "Saudi" Arabia the day after their first election... The Saudi Family would be out on their ear.... I heard but don't know for sure that they were in the top 10 of Human Rights Violaters at one time.. : : : Nobody disagrees that the world would be a better place if he didn't control Iraq. Even the Arab states. : : === I have no opinion on this since I am an American not an Iraqi. If I were from that region, I’m sure I’d have an opinion, and it might be in agreement. I’d have to say though, that if I were someone from a tribe who was butchered by some religious fanatics out of Iran or who’s grandparents were murdered by Kurds, perhaps I’d be glad Hussien was in power. You should ask yourself why YOU really think he’s unfit for rule. Really. Then apply those ideas to our own leadership, just for kicks. : : +++++ Seriously, I’m not a left wing liberal POS. I’m just a normal middle class American like many, but I’m not going to be taken for a fool and treated like an idiot child. We all can see something is up here besides what the news is telling us. It’s our duty as Americans to look beyond the news and status quo. : : : : : The UN is Impotent. It has failed to act in "Humanitarian" crises repeatedly. If they did, it was too little too late for hundreds of thousands of lives. I don't blame BUSH for saying to heck with the UN after giving them the opportunity to back their own resolutions. : : +++++The UN was backing their resolutions. We had inspectors in Iraq, sure with the threat of US invasion, and that was working. If the US wanted recompense for the billions it was costing to send troops over there to threaten Iraq into allowing inspectors back in, then you can believe that there is a program in place that would do just that. The Food for Oil Program is Iraq’s line of credit in the world. : : Consider how we were dealing with Iraq prior to the Hawk takeover of the US (see Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Perle) and you’ll see that we have been starving them out for years. We have effectively ruined their country by having huge restrictions on their exports. What has this done? It’s killed people. It’s made people live lousy lives. It’s created a state of poverty and hurt the neighboring countries which would otherwise engage in commerce with Iraq. Is this morally right for us to do to another country just because we don’t like them? We don’t even know them! : @@@@@@ Well, did you make my point? Do we agree? The embargo was a UN resolution that doesn't appear to have worked very well. : How many years have to pass before the UN effort is considered a "failure"? : Still, It is interesting that the US Coalition felt the need to be the lone voices in the world community that felt 'something' had to be done now. : We are perceived as the "Bully" in the world community. I think if one examines why we are perceived that way, we would discover that their arguments actually have some merit. : : ++++ I write all of the above as point to point arguments. I did that to help focus my own understanding and feelings, and to help others focus their doubts and feelings too. I do it with as much respect as you have given me. : @@@@ I think we feel much the same way. It is good for all of us to try to express these conflicting feelings, emotions, and facts. : : : The US has publically declared what "National Interests" we are defending. Unfortunately, Bush has lied to the whole world by OMITTING that the stability of the price of a barrel of oil is ONE of America's Vital interests. It IS and every reasonable, informed person knows it. Instead he states is ISN'T about oil. Who thinks that PART of this war ISN'T ABOUT OIL? : : : Why doesn'the plan to 'liberate' North Korea? No oil. They admit to developing Weapons of MASS Destructions. : : : But if US Policy is to become the world's policeman, then America HAS a problem. Your local policeman doesn't make up the law. The community makes up the law and the policeman's job is to enforce the law uniformly for all of the community members. : : : Policemen that selectively enforces the law on only "certain groups" are widely disrespected by the entire community. Policemen that break the law or impose 'street justice' are considered the scum of the earth. They have POWER and if they abuse it, they get no respect from the community affected. They violate the community's trust and their duty as policemen. : : to become the world's policeman then the US has to give UP CONTROL over what 'laws' they choose to enforce or not enforce. : : : The world community has to make up the laws and have a standing police force to enforce them equally and consistently. And be under the command and control of the world community. There are a LOT of good reasons the US shouldn't do that. So why should WE be trying to be the worlds policeman without international support? Simply, we shouldn't : : : They can't make up the rules and change them whenever they want based on our 'national interests' at the time... We armed Iraq to fight Iran. We armed Saudia Arabia to fight Iran. : : : We are behaving just like some gang on the street running a protection racket. We decide who our friends and enemies are and interact with them as we see fit. We demand tribute from are friends and enemies. We favor those that pay and punish those that resist. We pay and arm one country to go beat up on another. We hire others to do our dirty work. : : : America is being perceived, whether we like it or not, and whether is it true or not, as the Bully on the Block. Not the policeman. : : : Our country has been meddling in the middle east for over 50 years. How many governments and wars has the US and its military aid programs supported and opposed during that time. People have long memories when a country imposes its will on yours. Down south they havn't forgotten the Civil War yet... That was over a hundred years ago. 911 was terrible but that was ONE day that 50 plus years of US policy in the Middle East came home to bite us. : : : Time will tell if this little adventure in Iraq has created MORE problems than it solved. News this week states that we have alienated the "Moderate Arabs" Well, nobody asked what the impact is by pissing off the Arabs that already hate us even more. Got to ask yourself how many MORE of them are willing to fly planes into buildings this week compared to last month? : : : Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Enough reason to get rid of Saddam. But the price WILL be high. Blood, Guts, and shattered lives and families on both sides. The political price will be high too. Time will tell.... : : ++++ You voice many of the things that are being felt deep down inside of many of us. I was talking with my wife last night about what we as Americans should be trying to do in the world. This fight over oil is a fight about money invested in old technologies and commodities. There have always been stories of the perfect gasoline engine which will get umpteen hundred miles per gallon, but that cannot be produced thanks to the oil companies. This is obviously myth, but what isn’t myth is that we’re not ALL headed towards a betterment of the World. Once upon a time, not very long ago in the scheme of world history, our pioneer forefathers came here and carved out a world, a nation. Yankee ingenuity, hard work, and a fever towards betterment of the world. These things were the real revolution of democracy. We humans could and would work for ourselves, not ‘the king’ and become better individual men (and women) because we were finally allowed to be individuals. : : We individuals still can make the world a better place. It’s not all about making your individual fortune, though obviously that has it’s place! : : Now I have entered uncharted thoughts, so forgive or thank god that I end here. : @@@@ Keep thinking about it..... All of us.... [ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ WARPIG Tech Talk - Autococker / Minicocker ]