Posted by: Dale "Head_Hunters" DuPont on September 28, 2003 at 13:04:44

Tournament guys what the Rate of Fire. Shorter trigger travels etc. Scenerio Guys and snipers are looking for a butter smooth, light pull trigger. Some want it all.... And compromises have to be made along the way.... Being in the latter group I am a scenario player almost exclusively. A sniper with a REAL QUIET Cocker being my Primary performace goal. It can out shoot my finger with Rate of Fire so good enough for me in that department. Trigger Travel: First you have to look at your grip and the existing travel it has to move between pneumatics closed and opening points. Then subtract that from the overall or total trigger travel. Second, do you want to reduce that "excess" travel? Enough to buy a whole new grip with front and rear trigger stops? Or do you want to mess and modify your current grip? Or do you want to leave it ALONE? How much faster will that make your rate of fire? Not a whole lot.... You could reduce the pneumatics opening and closing points by getting a shortened stroke 3 way. Many players do but primarily to reduce the probability of short stokes. A slightly shorter trigger pull is a secondary benefit. Like 0.010" inch shorter... If you plan to do that anyway. Do it first.... Then tweak the grip. Otherwise you have to do it over...... Using the existing grip, you can put a Single Adjustable Trigger stop in FRONT OR BACK of the trigger stroke and attempt to time your marker properly. Use the end trigger travel in the grip as a 'permanent' and unadjustable 'trigger' stop. The VAST Majority of people put the adjustable trigger stop in the REAR. This is because the RAMP on the trigger plate that the sear slides on is FIXED relative to trigger plate travel and has to travel forward enough for the sear to be in the full UP position when the pneumatics close. So they use the Forward Travel Stop as the forward 'permanent' stop. You basically look for a place to drill and tap a hole to insert a screw into to adjust the rear trigger travel... An alternative is to put an object of a set length somewhere in the slide mechanism that would stop the rear trigger travel. A lot of filing and fitting. A piece of round plastic fitted inside the trigger plate return spring.. LIGHTER TRIGGER PULL: The Easy way is to get a Roller Sear and Valve Spring Set. Spring Sets from Madman are $12 at G3PB.com Includes 3 valve return, 3 hammer, 1 sear return (lighter than stock), 1 trigger return (lighter than stock). The Roller Sear makes a HUGE difference. $35-$50 Some come with some springs... However, all roller sears are NOT made alike. The Smart Parts is not as buttery smooth and light as the Besales for example. But my Smart Parts is still a measured 20 oz trigger pull.... Less than 2 pounds. Hair trigger by most standards. But the Besales...... Like butter.... Gets a WOW! everytime someone pulls it the first time... SPRINGS: The heavier the hammer spring, the more trigger pull resistance you will have. The heavier hammer spring will require a heavier sear return spring to hold the sear in place. For a lighter hammer spring, to generate the Same Velocity, you have to have a corresponding lighter valve return spring. Otherwise you just crank the velocity screw in to the SAME spring pressure as the heavier spring you just took out. So put in the lightest valve spring and then the lightest hammer spring that will generate 300 fps at the muzzle. (don't forget your operating pressure is a factor to include here. It doesn't affect trigger pull but CAN increase the muzzle velocity with a given spring pressure if you turn it UP....) The discussion about the effects of all of this on shot efficiency will be elsewere...... Then you MIGHT be able to use a lighter Sear Return spring. THAT is what generates the friction between the sear and sear lug engagement. All the above stuff just reduces how much force the sear spring has to exert. Strangely, I have yet to see a grip where the sear return spring is adjustable..... Just springs of different strength to swap... Then you are almost maxed out in the trigger pull department. Only ONE more variable The trigger return spring. It is small, weak and, percentage-wise, a fraction of the overall resistance of the trigger pull. Next to ZERO at the start of the trigger pull and firing point and compresses minimally and increasing in resistance as the trigger travel progresses. You can't FEEL the increased pressure so I say why bother... Tinker fun is tinker fun... So I tried it and now I say don't bother. My grip (A Bench Mark) had a set screw behind the trigger plate return spring and was adjustable. So I adjusted it. Put in lighter springs and adjusted it and got it as light as I could get it. Then when I got a little dirt in it or the weather got cooler, the trigger plate would "Hang" a little and force me to slow my rate of fire down to a crawl or have short strokes and chopped balls. Cured when I screwed that return plate spring back up to max... People will suggest you modify your stock sear. You change the angle of the sear face so it takes less force to pull it off the sear lug. You change the angle too much and you can't get it to engage the sear lug. Thus you buy a new sear. So go right ahead AFTER you buy a replacement sear. Next point, The sear is surface hardened and when you file or grind off the surface that wears against the sear lug, you grind off the hardened area. Then the exposed soft steel wears RAPIDLY. It works great for a while and then starts acting up. Then you have no choice but to replace it. By the time you buy two replacement stock sears you could have bought a roller sear. They USED to make a SEAR LUG replacement that was ROUNDED on the tip and another that was CONE Shaped on the tip. That would have the SAME effect by changing the engagement angle of the sear face and sear lug. Tried to find one recently and came up empty. If anyone KNOWS where to get one, Post it here and SEND ME an E mail too. They used to be about $7.

Follow Ups: Shocktech Razorpb 14:37:54 09/29/03 (2) Thanks Dale "Head_Hunters" DuPont 17:07:48 10/02/03 (1) Re: Thanks Razorpb 14:53:16 10/03/03 (0) Post a Followup Show your name as: DefaultRealnameBothNickname E-Mail address (eg: joeschmoe@aol.com): Show your e-mail address? DefaultYesNo Your Password: Don't have a password? CLICK HERE - Forgot your password? CLICK HERE Subject: Subject:Message: : Tournament guys what the Rate of Fire. Shorter trigger travels etc. : Scenerio Guys and snipers are looking for a butter smooth, light pull trigger. : Some want it all.... And compromises have to be made along the way.... : Being in the latter group I am a scenario player almost exclusively. : A sniper with a REAL QUIET Cocker being my Primary performace goal. : It can out shoot my finger with Rate of Fire so good enough for me in that department. : Trigger Travel: : First you have to look at your grip and the existing travel it has to move between pneumatics closed and opening points. Then subtract that from the overall or total trigger travel. : Second, do you want to reduce that "excess" travel? Enough to buy a whole new grip with front and rear trigger stops? Or do you want to mess and modify your current grip? Or do you want to leave it ALONE? How much faster will that make your rate of fire? Not a whole lot.... : : You could reduce the pneumatics opening and closing points by getting a shortened stroke 3 way. Many players do but primarily to reduce the probability of short stokes. A slightly shorter trigger pull is a secondary benefit. Like 0.010" inch shorter... : If you plan to do that anyway. Do it first.... Then tweak the grip. Otherwise you have to do it over...... : Using the existing grip, you can put a Single Adjustable Trigger stop in FRONT OR BACK of the trigger stroke and attempt to time your marker properly. Use the end trigger travel in the grip as a 'permanent' and unadjustable 'trigger' stop. : The VAST Majority of people put the adjustable trigger stop in the REAR. This is because the RAMP on the trigger plate that the sear slides on is FIXED relative to trigger plate travel and has to travel forward enough for the sear to be in the full UP position when the pneumatics close. So they use the Forward Travel Stop as the forward 'permanent' stop. : You basically look for a place to drill and tap a hole to insert a screw into to adjust the rear trigger travel... : An alternative is to put an object of a set length somewhere in the slide mechanism that would stop the rear trigger travel. A lot of filing and fitting. A piece of round plastic fitted inside the trigger plate return spring.. : LIGHTER TRIGGER PULL: : The Easy way is to get a Roller Sear and Valve Spring Set. : Spring Sets from Madman are $12 at G3PB.com Includes 3 valve return, 3 hammer, 1 sear return (lighter than stock), 1 trigger return (lighter than stock). : The Roller Sear makes a HUGE difference. $35-$50 Some come with some springs... : However, all roller sears are NOT made alike. The Smart Parts is not as buttery smooth and light as the Besales for example. : But my Smart Parts is still a measured 20 oz trigger pull.... Less than 2 pounds. Hair trigger by most standards. But the Besales...... Like butter.... Gets a WOW! everytime someone pulls it the first time... : SPRINGS: The heavier the hammer spring, the more trigger pull resistance you will have. The heavier hammer spring will require a heavier sear return spring to hold the sear in place. : For a lighter hammer spring, to generate the Same Velocity, you have to have a corresponding lighter valve return spring. Otherwise you just crank the velocity screw in to the SAME spring pressure as the heavier spring you just took out. : So put in the lightest valve spring and then the lightest hammer spring that will generate 300 fps at the muzzle. (don't forget your operating pressure is a factor to include here. It doesn't affect trigger pull but CAN increase the muzzle velocity with a given spring pressure if you turn it UP....) The discussion about the effects of all of this on shot efficiency will be elsewere...... : Then you MIGHT be able to use a lighter Sear Return spring. THAT is what generates the friction between the sear and sear lug engagement. All the above stuff just reduces how much force the sear spring has to exert. Strangely, I have yet to see a grip where the sear return spring is adjustable..... Just springs of different strength to swap... : Then you are almost maxed out in the trigger pull department. Only ONE more variable : The trigger return spring. : It is small, weak and, percentage-wise, a fraction of the overall resistance of the trigger pull. Next to ZERO at the start of the trigger pull and firing point and compresses minimally and increasing in resistance as the trigger travel progresses. You can't FEEL the increased pressure so I say why bother... : Tinker fun is tinker fun... So I tried it and now I say don't bother. My grip (A Bench Mark) had a set screw behind the trigger plate return spring and was adjustable. So I adjusted it. Put in lighter springs and adjusted it and got it as light as I could get it. Then when I got a little dirt in it or the weather got cooler, the trigger plate would "Hang" a little and force me to slow my rate of fire down to a crawl or have short strokes and chopped balls. Cured when I screwed that return plate spring back up to max... : People will suggest you modify your stock sear. You change the angle of the sear face so it takes less force to pull it off the sear lug. You change the angle too much and you can't get it to engage the sear lug. Thus you buy a new sear. : So go right ahead AFTER you buy a replacement sear. Next point, The sear is surface hardened and when you file or grind off the surface that wears against the sear lug, you grind off the hardened area. Then the exposed soft steel wears RAPIDLY. It works great for a while and then starts acting up. Then you have no choice but to replace it. By the time you buy two replacement stock sears you could have bought a roller sear. : They USED to make a SEAR LUG replacement that was ROUNDED on the tip and another that was CONE Shaped on the tip. : That would have the SAME effect by changing the engagement angle of the sear face and sear lug. : Tried to find one recently and came up empty. If anyone KNOWS where to get one, Post it here and SEND ME an E mail too. They used to be about $7. [ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ WARPIG Tech Talk - Autococker / Minicocker ]