Posted by: Team_Knightmare_Tango on August 16, 2003 at 15:39:40

This problem exists in all sports and in fact in life. The type of cheating you mention in tournaments and other sports exists because it's tolerated. It exists in life because the penalties for some crimes are non existant, because people know they will get off or get away with it. What if the player that argued with a certified ref was suspended for a year? What if wiping meant the same thing, suspension? What if companies actually had the ethics to not tolerate cheating by their teams? I see sponsored teams acting like idiots all the time but they remain sponsored. Same in scenario ball. I coach wrestling and see teams and athletes that try to pull B.S. all the time, we choose not to as a team. I hope that type of ethic will pay off and carry over, seems to have worked last season and we're in a position to do even better this year. I think that type of ethic draws and builds people that work harder and will in turn be better than those that take short cuts. Winning is not and should not be at all costs. That's a life lesson, not just a paintball lesson. The same people that cheat in paintball probably take short cuts and cheat in life. Most pay for it eventually, don't they? I fear also that more competition will equal more cheating because it means more is on the line. Should it be something that's shied away from or instead delt with? : As to my post below on this topic. From someone who has played and covered the large tourneys and the player mentalities (I know a lot of others that have also done it will agree with me), rec (even hard core scenario players) and tourney players usually ARE usually wired differently (well, maybe not for some, but they are usually a negative influence). I still play local tourneys and even that bastion is getting pretty ugly. : Competition is a part of anything in a contest (never said otherwise and I have argued my own desire to win a number of times), but there is usually a limit to where (normally more ethical) rec players take it. Playing hard to win is not the issue here, as some have confused it. Hard core, stand up play is NOT THE THING we are talking about. Applying the tourney ethos to rec ball, though, is a hard line that rec players should not tolerate. Perhaps it is semantics, but maybe not, and that is what scares me. Some of you think playing to win means playing honorably (goes without saying, right), but those of us that have wider experiences freak so much because we know playing to win usually means at ANY cost. That terrifies us. We both have to understand where the other person is coming from. Just because you say "green" doesn't mean our experiences let us see or think "green." : Imagine scenario players that ignore hits and drive to the flag station until a ref has to all but tackle them to get them to stop, then they have a screaming match with the ref(s) about how blind they are while another squad can then flank the objective. It's all about the win, right? Can we ten-for-five a team that does this? Do we want squads that bunker a base and then Superman into a bunker to wipe the hits before a ref can get there? Sure, these players already exist, but they are pariahs and SHOULD be spotlighted as negatives. : I know we are still trying to dance around the line of win v. fun (and they CAN coexist), but when it is ALL about winning for your fun (I read this as anything goes, since the end justifies the means), then you have forgotten much of what paintball represents for all of us as a group at a game. : Humbly me, : Rick - TZ : (who also would rather win than not, but won't cheat, throw my gun, or punch someone if I don't)

Follow Ups: Cheating in paintball Clayphoto 00:53:25 08/17/03 (3) Re: Cheating in paintball Smakman 15:55:10 08/17/03 (2) Preventing cheating Clayphoto 23:21:23 08/17/03 (1) I've met some of his player refs. It works! Dale "Head_Hunters" DuPont 12:00:27 08/24/03 (0) Post a Followup Show your name as: DefaultRealnameBothNickname E-Mail address (eg: joeschmoe@aol.com): Show your e-mail address? DefaultYesNo Your Password: Don't have a password? CLICK HERE - Forgot your password? CLICK HERE Subject: Subject:Message: : This problem exists in all sports and in fact in life. The type of cheating you mention in tournaments and other sports exists because it's tolerated. It exists in life because the penalties for some crimes are non existant, because people know they will get off or get away with it. What if the player that argued with a certified ref was suspended for a year? What if wiping meant the same thing, suspension? What if companies actually had the ethics to not tolerate cheating by their teams? I see sponsored teams acting like idiots all the time but they remain sponsored. Same in scenario ball. I coach wrestling and see teams and athletes that try to pull B.S. all the time, we choose not to as a team. I hope that type of ethic will pay off and carry over, seems to have worked last season and we're in a position to do even better this year. I think that type of ethic draws and builds people that work harder and will in turn be better than those that take short cuts. : Winning is not and should not be at all costs. That's a life lesson, not just a paintball lesson. The same people that cheat in paintball probably take short cuts and cheat in life. Most pay for it eventually, don't they? : I fear also that more competition will equal more cheating because it means more is on the line. Should it be something that's shied away from or instead delt with? : : : As to my post below on this topic. From someone who has played and covered the large tourneys and the player mentalities (I know a lot of others that have also done it will agree with me), rec (even hard core scenario players) and tourney players usually ARE usually wired differently (well, maybe not for some, but they are usually a negative influence). I still play local tourneys and even that bastion is getting pretty ugly. : : Competition is a part of anything in a contest (never said otherwise and I have argued my own desire to win a number of times), but there is usually a limit to where (normally more ethical) rec players take it. Playing hard to win is not the issue here, as some have confused it. Hard core, stand up play is NOT THE THING we are talking about. Applying the tourney ethos to rec ball, though, is a hard line that rec players should not tolerate. Perhaps it is semantics, but maybe not, and that is what scares me. Some of you think playing to win means playing honorably (goes without saying, right), but those of us that have wider experiences freak so much because we know playing to win usually means at ANY cost. That terrifies us. We both have to understand where the other person is coming from. Just because you say "green" doesn't mean our experiences let us see or think "green." : : Imagine scenario players that ignore hits and drive to the flag station until a ref has to all but tackle them to get them to stop, then they have a screaming match with the ref(s) about how blind they are while another squad can then flank the objective. It's all about the win, right? Can we ten-for-five a team that does this? Do we want squads that bunker a base and then Superman into a bunker to wipe the hits before a ref can get there? Sure, these players already exist, but they are pariahs and SHOULD be spotlighted as negatives. : : I know we are still trying to dance around the line of win v. fun (and they CAN coexist), but when it is ALL about winning for your fun (I read this as anything goes, since the end justifies the means), then you have forgotten much of what paintball represents for all of us as a group at a game. : : Humbly me, : : Rick - TZ : : (who also would rather win than not, but won't cheat, throw my gun, or punch someone if I don't) [ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ WARPIG Rec Talk ]